QNET to USB adapter

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Chr$
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QNET to USB adapter

Post by Chr$ »

Imagine, if you will, a USB dongle with a 3.5mm socket for a standard mono lead that can communicate with a real QL from within QPC (etc).... I actually had this idea in my head and was going to float it out there to see if such a device could be made.

Then I saw Martyn Hill's post on Marcel's site from 2017 (here: https://www.kilgus.net/2017/03/19/toolk ... he-sequel/) and it seems he already had the idea and is obviously qualified to actually make something like that!

So how did that come along Martyn, if/when you see this? I think something along those lines would be a fantastic new product.


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Re: QNET to USB adapter

Post by Peter »

I might in part be responsible for slowing down Martyn's project by telling him about another piece of hardware which already can do the job.
qzero.jpg
I mean the Qzero, my tiny QL compatible computer in a sub-RaspberryPi Zero form factor. Among other things it can translate Serial/USB to QL network. But I'm not motivated for a series product at the moment. And the Qzero would be more expensive, since it has two SDRAMs, FPGA, microSD card, video, etc. So I hope Martyn will finish his work anyway.

What would be a reasonable price for a USB to QL network converter?


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Re: QNET to USB adapter

Post by Chr$ »

Oh yes, I remember seeing your mini device. Fantastic, but perhaps overkill to use just as a means to get an original QL to talk to the world.

I really think though that getting more people into the QL (if that's even possible - I'm realistic!) has to involve some kind of BBQL interface to the modern world, as BBQL's are simply the QL related items that exist in the highest numbers and that more people have access to or are likely to be familiar with.

I'm also aware that any original QL on a QNET ideally needs to have extra RAM, or all you can do is send files to it's mdv, which, even though I have some rather good quality mdv carts that could be provided with such a device, probably would still be a bit temperamental some of the time! The BBQL would also require TK2 in an ideal world.

End user price, I suspect £40 would be perfectly fine. Sign me up exclusively for 100!

Actually, on the subject of RAM, is this a new product?

https://www.ebay.de/itm/Sinclair-QL-512 ... 4351853373


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Re: QNET to USB adapter

Post by Peter »

Chr$ wrote:Oh yes, I remember seeing your mini device. Fantastic, but perhaps overkill to use just as a means to get an original QL to talk to the world.
Cutting it down to just one, smaller SDRAM, the smallest FPGA, no microSD and tailoring it for USB-QLNET might be an option. But the board requires BGA machine soldering, which makes no sense for 10 to 20 adapters or so. A QNET to USB adapter could turn out a low quantity item, as SD cards will in many cases be sufficient for data transport. Also, many have a Q68, which can do the same job via a cheap SER-USB cable.

£40 for an adapter would be less than an external QL-SD while the hardware is more complex.


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Re: QNET to USB adapter

Post by Chr$ »

Peter wrote: Cutting it down to just one, smaller SDRAM, the smallest FPGA, no microSD and tailoring it for USB-QLNET might be an option. But the board requires BGA machine soldering, which makes no sense for 10 to 20 adapters or so.
SDRAM is needed to act as a kind of buffer for the moving of the data? Forgive my ignorance. And for 100.. would that be do-able?
Peter wrote:A QNET to USB adapter could turn out a low quantity item, as SD cards will in many cases be sufficient for data transport. Also, many have a Q68, which can do the same job via a cheap SER-USB cable.
People here have solutions for getting files across to a BBQL should they so desire, and some are lucky enough to own a Q68 but this (to me) is a device for the man on the street, so to speak. The simplest, easiest and best value (and most basic) way of getting files to a BBQL - to discover or re-discover what is out there. Just for playing around, not 'serious' QLing. Problem is though, it may not be of any much/use without expanded BBQL RAM, which is of course fairly expensive to produce.
Peter wrote:£40 for an adapter would be less than an external QL-SD while the hardware is more complex.
Yes, it wouldn't be something to compete with the QL-SD which is marvellous and obviously more useful (and rightly so, more expensive). I envisage QNET-USB as the entry level device out of the few devices that allow some kind of interaction with an original QL.

Sales pitch along the lines of: Dig your QL out of the loft and all you need* is a PC and within a short space of time and for very little investment you can easily be up and running and discover the basics of the original QL via the free software that is now available. Something like that. I know I get quite enthusiastic, but I really do believe that commercially the main potential is for BBQL's. I know you chaps that develop the wonderful new QL soft-/hardware do it more for love and not for profit, when you factor in the massive amount of time you put in. However, to somehow attempt to quantify the number of potential BBQL users... that Retro Computer Shack man who is the largest and most well-known seller of QL Scart leads has sold 554 of them (and he's not the only seller of scart leads). So that indicates that there are at least 554 people out there who are interested in getting a original QL going and mostly just to use it for simple stuff. Also, personally I've sold about 400 Microdrive cartridges in the last year or so. Those are the customers!

And for me too, I'd love to have a networked BBQL/Q68/PC running QPC, just for the sake of it!

*Assuming the keyboard works and you have a means of getting a video connection - but those are both fairly easily solved with new items.


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Re: QNET to USB adapter

Post by martyn_hill »

Hiya Chr$
Chr$ wrote:So how did that come along Martyn, if/when you see this? I think something along those lines would be a fantastic new product.
Still moving along, but distracted by many other projects - and yes, Peter's Q-zero offers an alternative approach that shows a lot of promise :-)

As of today, using a basic wrapper and the working 'QLUB' QLAN to USB adapter, I can move arbitrary files back and forth between QPC2 and a basic QL (or anything else that speaks QLAN).

Still quite some work remaining on building-out the remainder of the code to allow seemless networking via the basic NET and/or TK2 NET driver on the emulator. Myabe later this year :-)

Thanks for expressing interest!

M.


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Re: QNET to USB adapter

Post by Chr$ »

martyn_hill wrote:Hiya Chr$
Chr$ wrote:So how did that come along Martyn, if/when you see this? I think something along those lines would be a fantastic new product.
Still moving along, but distracted by many other projects - and yes, Peter's Q-zero offers an alternative approach that shows a lot of promise :-)

As of today, using a basic wrapper and the working 'QLUB' QLAN to USB adapter, I can move arbitrary files back and forth between QPC2 and a basic QL (or anything else that speaks QLAN).

Still quite some work remaining on building-out the remainder of the code to allow seemless networking via the basic NET and/or TK2 NET driver on the emulator. Myabe later this year :-)

Thanks for expressing interest!

M.
I just found this long topic on it! I should have just added something there

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1985

Looks like it went down well. I'd love to be involved somehow. If the end-user cost can be kept reasonable (under £40) I'd buy 100 at whatever discount. And I'm not just into this from a commercial perspective, I have grown even fonder of the QL over the last year or so and I would have loved something like at the start of my QL re-discovery. I bet there are potentially a lot of people in that boat.


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Re: QNET to USB adapter

Post by Peter »

Chr$ wrote:
Peter wrote: Cutting it down to just one, smaller SDRAM, the smallest FPGA, no microSD and tailoring it for USB-QLNET might be an option. But the board requires BGA machine soldering, which makes no sense for 10 to 20 adapters or so.
SDRAM is needed to act as a kind of buffer for the moving of the data?
It would be a little SMSQ/E system running QLNET and SERNET. An that system requires some RAM larger than internal FPGA RAM.
Chr$ wrote:And for 100.. would that be do-able?
Yes, but I have no faith 100 would sell.
Chr$ wrote:Yes, it wouldn't be something to compete with the QL-SD which is marvellous and obviously more useful (and rightly so, more expensive).
Quite the opposite, an external QL-SD is actually simpler and less expensive (at least for me).
Chr$ wrote:I envisage QNET-USB as the entry level device out of the few devices that allow some kind of interaction with an original QL.
The usefulness may be entry level, but hardware and cost is not. An external QL-SD is probably the cheapest way of transferring data.
Chr$ wrote:I know I get quite enthusiastic, but I really do believe that commercially the main potential is for BBQL's. I know you chaps that develop the wonderful new QL soft-/hardware do it more for love and not for profit, when you factor in the massive amount of time you put in. However, to somehow attempt to quantify the number of potential BBQL users... that Retro Computer Shack man who is the largest and most well-known seller of QL Scart leads has sold 554 of them (and he's not the only seller of scart leads). So that indicates that there are at least 554 people out there who are interested in getting a original QL going and mostly just to use it for simple stuff. Also, personally I've sold about 400 Microdrive cartridges in the last year or so. Those are the customers!
The question is do they want to set up an emulator and load files by network... Putting a collection on SD card might be the preferred option for many.


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Re: QNET to USB adapter

Post by Chr$ »

Peter wrote: Yes, but I have no faith 100 would sell.
I bet 100+ would sell, it's really all a question of price. I would certainly buy 100 to re-sell. It's really all a question of price.
Peter wrote: Quite the opposite, an external QL-SD is actually simpler and less expensive (at least for me). The usefulness may be entry level, but hardware and cost is not. An external QL-SD is probably the cheapest way of transferring data.
If that's the case, then it's probably a non-starter, at least in the form of a little SMSQ/E system.
Peter wrote: The question is do they want to set up an emulator and load files by network... Putting a collection on SD card might be the preferred option for many.
Some probably would, I mean everyone has Windows (or Mac) with a USB socket, it could be really easy to set up. But like you say, if the QL-SD is just as complicated.... I really do believe that a simple cheap way of getting files to a BBQL would be a commercial success, at least in terms of QL related devices. They don't have to all sell particularly fast, if they are always available in the right places with decent exposure then they'll sell. I know the QL is and always was a very niche scene, but a lot is down to availability and awareness.

Martyn, your device isn't as complex as a mini SMSQ/E system. Out of interest, what is the cost of the required components and roughly what would the PCBs cost to make, e.g. for 100?


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Re: QNET to USB adapter

Post by Derek_Stewart »

Hi,

I have reading this thread with interest.

But the ability to network BBQL QL Net to Q68 via Sernet QPC2

The Q68 acts as a Network connection to both system, so the QPC2 can access the microdrives of the BBQL.


Regards,

Derek
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