QL 34th Anniversary new hardware.

A place to discuss general QL issues.
User avatar
pjw
Gold Card
Posts: 380
Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:44 am
Location: Norway

Re: QL 34th Anniversary new hardware.

Postby pjw » Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:03 pm

mk79 wrote:
pjw wrote:I once calculated that 100 PC MHz was about the same as 1 QL MHz using QPC.
As QPC was originally developed on a 486DX2 66 Mhz and even there performed better than a BBQL I would contest this figure ;)
I just seem to recall that I switched from using my 80MHz Q60 to using QPC most of the time after I got a 800MHz PC. But it was a long time ago.. As a matter of interest, just off the top of your head: what would be a useful, approximation PC MHz: QPC MHz? Lets say were talking pure MC68 code emulation.


Per
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.
- H. L. Mencken
User avatar
mk79
Over Heated PSU
Posts: 142
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2014 10:54 am

Re: QL 34th Anniversary new hardware.

Postby mk79 » Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:57 pm

pjw wrote:
mk79 wrote:
pjw wrote:I once calculated that 100 PC MHz was about the same as 1 QL MHz using QPC.
As QPC was originally developed on a 486DX2 66 Mhz and even there performed better than a BBQL I would contest this figure ;)
I just seem to recall that I switched from using my 80MHz Q60 to using QPC most of the time after I got a 800MHz PC. But it was a long time ago.. As a matter of interest, just off the top of your head: what would be a useful, approximation PC MHz: QPC MHz? Lets say were talking pure MC68 code emulation.
Well, now we're talking 10:1 instead of 100:1, I can live with that ;) Of course an 80Mhz Q60 is a lot faster than a hypothetical 80Mhz BBQL, so Mhz is not really a good measure for speed anyway.

Marcel


Derek_Stewart
QL Wafer Drive
Posts: 1059
Joined: Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:40 am
Location: Runcorn, Cheshire, UK

Re: QL 34th Anniversary new hardware.

Postby Derek_Stewart » Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:13 am

Dave wrote:If someone more knowledgeable could even do a block diagram of what's happening in a SGC, particularly within INGOT, it would benefit the whole community. It's something of a black box for most of us.


I am not sure I have the knowledge and skills to do this, but I have the JED files for Ingot4, Ingot5 and Ingot21, which was given to me to produce new QXL cards. The files maybe still copyright back to Miracle Systems, I can ask Tony Firshman what the status is.

Maybe a more interesting question is, can the Altera JED files be loaded back into a Altera programming software to reproduce the source code. There is no .adf input files, so I think this means a disassembley.

There seems no-one with can give me help on this.


Regards,

Derek
User avatar
Pr0f
Gold Card
Posts: 284
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:54 am

Re: QL 34th Anniversary new hardware.

Postby Pr0f » Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:28 am

I thought if the files are not protected, and you know the compiler they were built with and the device they are targetted to, you can recreate the equations, all be it without pretty labels...

I may be wrong there - but I seem to remember having some joy in the past with GAL's and reversing them back to usable equations - but they are much simpler devices..


User avatar
Dave
SandySuperQDave
Posts: 2001
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:52 am
Location: Austin, TX
Contact:

Re: QL 34th Anniversary new hardware.

Postby Dave » Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:44 pm

The equations of INGOT20 are available. That's version 20.24 dated 15 Feb 94. The catch (as I have just been discussing with Nasta) is that they're extremely limited in usefulness. The device as a type doesn't really exist any more so the knowledge doesn't transfer easily to any other device. The availability of EP1810LC-25T is extremely limited and they are quite pricey. Due to pin shortages, only 4MB can be supported. With different DRAM packages, 16MB could theoretically be supported, but it would not be an easy change. It's also quite specifically timed for 24MHz.

It is also quite difficult to recreate the system to program the devices. That said, Tetroid has managed this. If he is willing to program devices for others as a community service, that might be very helpful. He does seem to be able to get hold of new, un-programmed EP1810LC-25Ts at fairly reasonable cost going by his new pricing on the completed boards.

One of the biggest problems with the equations is they doubled pins on many cases, just because the IO budget was so constrained. I have found at least three cases where an IO pin was used as input for one signal and output for a completely unrelated signal. EG: pin 11 is used as A3 input and RAS output.


Derek_Stewart
QL Wafer Drive
Posts: 1059
Joined: Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:40 am
Location: Runcorn, Cheshire, UK

Re: QL 34th Anniversary new hardware.

Postby Derek_Stewart » Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:32 pm

Hi Dave,

I did a quick search on EP1810LC-25T, the cheapest I can find is $18 plus shipping.

I have a EP1810 programming adapter for my ALL03A programmer, so the PLDs can be programmed easily.

When I find time, I will if I can decompile tge Altera JED files.


Regards,

Derek
Derek_Stewart
QL Wafer Drive
Posts: 1059
Joined: Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:40 am
Location: Runcorn, Cheshire, UK

Re: QL 34th Anniversary new hardware.

Postby Derek_Stewart » Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:38 pm

mk79 wrote:
pjw wrote:
mk79 wrote:As QPC was originally developed on a 486DX2 66 Mhz and even there performed better than a BBQL I would contest this figure ;)
I just seem to recall that I switched from using my 80MHz Q60 to using QPC most of the time after I got a 800MHz PC. But it was a long time ago.. As a matter of interest, just off the top of your head: what would be a useful, approximation PC MHz: QPC MHz? Lets say were talking pure MC68 code emulation.
Well, now we're talking 10:1 instead of 100:1, I can live with that ;) Of course an 80Mhz Q60 is a lot faster than a hypothetical 80Mhz BBQL, so Mhz is not really a good measure for speed anyway.

Marcel


Of a 80Mhz Q60 with optimised codd would run even faster.

I do not think it is good idea to compare PCs to QL... they run differently and to run a QL Operating System, requires a emulation programme. Unless SMSQ\E running on the bare metal of PC.


Regards,

Derek
User avatar
Dave
SandySuperQDave
Posts: 2001
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:52 am
Location: Austin, TX
Contact:

Re: QL 34th Anniversary new hardware.

Postby Dave » Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:33 pm

Derek_Stewart wrote:Hi Dave,

I did a quick search on EP1810LC-25T, the cheapest I can find is $18 plus shipping.

I have a EP1810 programming adapter for my ALL03A programmer, so the PLDs can be programmed easily.

When I find time, I will if I can decompile tge Altera JED files.


I can get them for $13 shipped, new old stock. That said, I don't think I'd want to use them for anything when for the fair amount of work to recreate the functionality on a newer device with more blocks and IO we could have a much faster CPU and much more memory and flexibility of memory type. As Nasta explained, the INGOT acts as a form of state machine, presenting the CPU to the QL as a 68008 and the QL to the CPU as, well, there's a disabled parking permit involved. ;)

The other aspect is that while nobody's likely to be sued for using the INGOT code, it is copyright and isn't public domain. Cloning it is a bit naughty - especially if you use the ROM contents. But it's being done. So in our case, I think we're going to be developing something around the 030 or 040 and a different FPGA. INGOT provides good guidance, but it isn't really a solution unless you want to be limited to 4MB and 24 MHz. If it can't have at least 3x the performance of the SGC, it's not really worth it, is it?

I had thought I sent you my little collection of very worse for wear EP1810-35s, but I found them while doing an inventory recently. They're bent pins and not fast enough for this application and would be mostly a curiosity. They do have erase windows, though. Once you program a non-window 1810, how do you erase it? If you can't, prototyping must get very expensive very quickly.


User avatar
pjw
Gold Card
Posts: 380
Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:44 am
Location: Norway

Re: QL 34th Anniversary new hardware.

Postby pjw » Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:02 pm

Derek_Stewart wrote:
mk79 wrote:
pjw wrote:I just seem to recall that I switched from using my 80MHz Q60 to using QPC most of the time after I got a 800MHz PC. But it was a long time ago.. As a matter of interest, just off the top of your head: what would be a useful, approximation PC MHz: QPC MHz? Lets say were talking pure MC68 code emulation.
Well, now we're talking 10:1 instead of 100:1, I can live with that ;) Of course an 80Mhz Q60 is a lot faster than a hypothetical 80Mhz BBQL, so Mhz is not really a good measure for speed anyway.


Of a 80Mhz Q60 with optimised codd would run even faster.

I do not think it is good idea to compare PCs to QL... they run differently and to run a QL Operating System, requires a emulation programme. Unless SMSQ\E running on the bare metal of PC.
I can assure you: When I got an 800MHz PC it appeared, on the whole, to run as fast or faster than my Q60. Which is why I switched. Since I had to have the PC anyway for email and such, there seemed no point in maintaining both. At around the same time, I installed Linux Red Hat V1.00. After faffing around for dog knows how many days (I think I counted some 3000+ man pages, excluding the 1000 page paper manual that came with it) I packed it in. It took me 30 minutes to figure out WIndoze 95 and I got a job on the strength of that, so, not being of a masochistic bent, it seemed the rational choice to me.
The soporific grinding of microdrives is now but a distant dream.. That being said, I loathe M$, IBM, Apple, Intel and the rest, and would gladly suffer some inconvenience to be rid of them, so should anyone come up with a modern QL successor with sufficient grunt, keep me posted, eh :)


Per
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.
- H. L. Mencken
Derek_Stewart
QL Wafer Drive
Posts: 1059
Joined: Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:40 am
Location: Runcorn, Cheshire, UK

Re: QL 34th Anniversary new hardware.

Postby Derek_Stewart » Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:19 pm

Dave wrote:
I had thought I sent you my little collection of very worse for wear EP1810-35s, but I found them while doing an inventory recently. They're bent pins and not fast enough for this application and would be mostly a curiosity. They do have erase windows, though. Once you program a non-window 1810, how do you erase it? If you can't, prototyping must get very expensive very quickly.


Hi Dave,

I wanted the EP1810LC for some QXL cards which I built up.

Unfortunatley, the EP1810LC-35 were too slow for the QXL
and overheated.

I bought some EP1810LC-20T PLDs, which run to a maximum of 62Mhz through thr Macro Cell in the PLD. The QXL II has a 50Mhz oscillator installed so the QXL Glue chip or EP1810LC-20T runs at 50 Mhz well within tge Turbo speed. The 68040 divides the clock speed by 2 to 25Mhz.

I did have an idea of making a 68040 to 68060 adapter, from the Amiga world for the QXL. Which give 50Mhz 68060. But since the adapter works on a Amiga 68040 accelerator board. Does mean it would work a QXL. I have a couple of partially built adapters. So when get time I will get them built and tezt the idea.


Regards,

Derek

Return to “General QL Chat”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests