QL storage solutions: Pros, cons and opinions.

[stephen_usher]

I'm spinning this discussion out the the SD card based Microdrive replacement so as not to clog that up...

It's an interesting discussion as to what the most appropriate data storage solution for the QL is. All have their pros can cons and none are as convenient (or as large as) modern machines, but we are talking about a 40 year old system that we are trying to push far further than the developers imagined.

Anyway, let's start the discussion.

[stephen_usher]

Here's my own take:

Microdrives and modern replacements.

They have their place. Microdrive carts are old and tired but they are the founding media for the machine and there is some software which only really works well on them. The QDOS filesystem was built with this media in mind and the built in utilities match the 100K size, without directories.

Systems with multiple images are a bit of a pain to manage as swapping between images is always cumbersome. vDrive has great utilities but you have to reboot and load them every time you need to swap drive contents. etc.

Sometimes it's nice to use the system (almost) as it was first designed, even if the actual storage is different and the sound of the drives is just a recording being played.

Floppy disks and Goteks etc.

Floppy disks are small enough that the limitations of QDOS aren't a major issue, but even high density drives are too small and slow to hold compressed video that an expanded QL can play.

Later versions of Toolkit II and disk utilities have kludged directories into the filesystem but they are cumbersome so on floppies they're hardly used.

Gotek units are great to store lots of disk images but they are painful to use if you're swapping between images, back and forth.

"Winchester" emulators and other "large" and fast storage solutions.

These are great. I've just got a QIMSI. They're fast and hold a lot of data.

However, the Toolkit II and QDOS directory extensions are a right pain. DATA_USE, PROG_USE etc. are not as intuitive as they could be and traversing the filesystem is not as simple as other OSs I've used (and I've used a lot including mini and mainframe systems). Even if you move down to a lower directory DIR gives the full path for all files. It's not nice. Then again it's a kludge built on top of a system which knows nothing about directories.


So, there you have it, my opinion, which doesn't invalidate anyone else's. I'd love to hear other points of view.

[xelalex]

It's an interesting discussion as to what the most appropriate data storage solution for the QL is...

Finding the most appropriate storage solution for the QL per se might be problematic. I think you would need to look at what you want to do with the QL, and then find what's appropriate for that.

... but we are talking about a 40 year old system that we are trying to push far further than the developers imagined.

For me personally that is not an objective. I only got a QL because I wanted to own one and keep it in working order. It's stock, no expansions whatsoever. I'm not actually doing anything with it, other than occasionally demonstrating to people (interested or not ) how you worked with it back in the day. For that, having a faithful Microdrive emulation is all I need.

For doing anything beyond that, I would agree with @tofro, that Microdrives are not well suited, original or emulated.

[tofro]

Again - I don't want to spoil anyone's game and I very much appreciate the effort and ingenuity that has gone into microdrive emulation (And, I think xealex can confirm I have tried to support everyone who worked on it in the past). The problem is, microdrives have never really been suitable for expanded QLs. Not even back then when it was new.

Microdrives (and emulators that pretend to be) are, as I said, perfectly fine for an unexpanded QL. Size is large enough if you consider a program and a data drive, and with 100k of storage space, subdirectories aren't really missed much. One cartridge holds one program, you reset the box, program runs its dedicaded BOOT file, you save your data to a separate cartridge, all fine and dandy. If you want to run another program, slot in its dedicated program and data cartridges, reset the box, work with that.

Unfortunately, that exploits the QL and QDOS potential only very marginally. The free memory on an unexpanded machine simply doesn't allow much more and you practically must use the QL as a single-tasking system, because that's what fits in. But once you expand your QL, matters are becoming quite a bit different. You might want to run more complex and maybe Pointer-driven programs and might want to add a number of standard toolkits and drivers, your sessions become much longer and way less centered around one single program and its data. It still amazes me today how much that feels like driving a modern OS like MacOS or Windows. Microdrives simply don't fit into this way of working anymore (and even floppies offering 7 to ten times the storage space turned out to be too small once you had them). For me, the situation only relaxed once I had an ST-QL and a 44MB hard drive - That platform was fun to work with! For once you could pull in all the toolkits you needed, run multiple programs at once, exploit PE and WMAN to its fullest and develop really large programs. And that is simply the environment I see as a minimum to really be able to enjoy the advantages of QDOS over its contemporary competitors. A QL with a TrumpCard, GC or SGC and QLSD "feels" pretty much the same (at varying speeds), only looks much better . It still has restrictions, but by far not as annoying as anything less. And, QDOS really flourishes and shines once you're there.

I agree that the filename length restrictions can be annoying, but I have now had 35 years to make my peace with them and arrange. I rarely have any problems these days, and when, I pretty soon have a work-around.

I did not start this discussion to hurt, annoy or diminish anyone's efforts and my opinion on how they fit an unexpanded QL stands. What I'd like to avoid is that a QL beginner comes to think "Microdrives were good enough to use the QL back then so a one-to-one replacement must be good enough today to experience that platform". No, they weren't. Microdrives used to be an annoying nuisance and everyone who tried to work in earnest with the QL got rid of and forgot them them as soon as they could. I think this limitation needs to be known and appreciated.

[Chr$]

I like having both a virtual microdrive and mass storage win1_ on SD an card, it's the ultimate in flexibility. My main use tends to be for dumping/recovering original mdv cartridges so I also need those drives to work and still get a little kick using them. I find myself using mainly the QIMSI to back them up onto and it's so convenient to have a QXL.WIN file on an SD card to be able to simply pop into a modern PC and then take the files from it (via Qemulator).

Very occasionally my vDrive is used when I need to do it the other way round, i.e. to put a cartridge dump onto a real cartridge.

In the past I've also used floppy drive(s) with a QL-contemporary FDD interface card, IDE drives (and even MFM monsters), also with QL-contemporary controller cards and also an older Tetroid with CF card but all 3 of those have been rendered completely obsolete by QL-SD/QIMSI - for floppies, they can be handy for small files (more so when PCs also had floppy drives as standard) but you need extra power for them, more cables, more space and they also don't hold a massive amount of data. MFM/IDE/CF harddrives I just found so inconvenient getting the data from them onto a modern computer (no luxury of QXL.WIN container files there).

Of equal importance to me is having the ability to swap ROMs using my Tetroid ROM swapper module with external switches. I can use a standard Sinclair ROM which is required for dumping cartridges or original QL experiences, or I can switch to Minerva and get the full Pointer Environment up and running. Most PE software tends to be easier to adapt to running from a win1_ configuration whereas software/games that were originally on mdv can be a bloody pain to get working on anything other than original or virtual mdv drive.

Edit: and you need extra RAM of course, that's vital for using any kind of storage with more room than floppies or for PE.

[Derek_Stewart]

Hi,

Personally, I do no use Microdrive Tapes, until I bought a Trump Card from Miracle Systems, change a nice computer into a Super computer.

I had many problems with Microdrive tape loading or not loading and saving. I had other Disk systems from Sandy, CST, but they were rubbish in comparison to the Trump Card disk system. It also had more ram... bonus.

I would never go back to microdrive tapes.

I have vDriveQL, QL-SD, QIMSI, Romdisq, Miracle Hard Drive, Qubide, new Qubide board, Tetroid TDI... maybe too many.

I also have parts to build Oqtadrive internal and external, PicoMDV boards, I just do find the time to make the finished item.

So I really do not care what is used, I will probably want to have one or make one.

I tried to get the Romdisq back in production, had agreed a licencing agreement to build them, then was told the Romdisq design and construction files are lost, due to the computer with the files being thrown away.

The only option is reverse engineering the Romdisq. But since the QIMSI is here not worth it.

[Peter]

The only option is reverse engineering the Romdisq. But since the QIMSI is here not worth it.

Romdisq has the huge advantage that it comes without SLAVE buffering. Unfortunately, the sources seem gone.
Neither Tony Firshman nor Tony Tebby still have them. The Romdisq driver adapted to SD card would be great.

For me, microdrive emulation is just a potential gimmick.
A compact internal board with fullzise SD card at the slot would be cool enough to buy.

For actual use, QL-SD and the likes, no floppy.

[bwinkel67]

[Moving post from "New Microdrive Internal Replacement" to here to avoid clogging thread...so some of this context is found in that original thread.]

So I understand correctly, QL-SD doesn't qualify to what Peter was talking about because it creates WIN storage not MDV?

I always thought it would be cool to create an actual microcartidge replacement that left the microdrive unit in tact. Something like the cassette to 3.5 mm adapter they used to use in car stereos. I'm guessing that the digital signal would be harder to mimic than the analog for an audio tape, but still, that would be a nifty device.

I also agree, that a variation of this particular "internal microdrive replacement" would personally appeal to me if they got rid of the screen and buttons, repositioned the connector further back and maybe stuck a black 3-D printed cap at the end of the cartridge PCB so it looked like a microdrive when plugged in. Nostalgically speaking, there is something really satifying about inserting a microcartridge into the slot. Add sound and you'd have a fully sold-state replacement in the same form factor (which would even fit completely into the sleeves). Additionally, let it act as a FLP and WIN device as well, and you'd have a complete solution.

But, there are folks interested in that form factor with screen and buttons, so I'm happy to see the work. More options is always better, but consequently not everyone it going to like all available designs and can choose which one fits best with what they like. Presently, I prefer vDrive for my microdrive emulator, since it requires no hardware mods to the QL (similar to my 2nd point above).

[Derek_Stewart]

Hi,

A MDV storage replacement board with sound, vDriveQL has this, but what is described is the QIMSI, has sound, WIN storage, MDV emulation with the correct use on WIN_USE.

The Oqtadrive provides internal external MDV emulation, with MDV image control from S*BASIC.

QL-SD can be used with QIMSI, or on it own, install MDI, then there is MDV image control from any WIN storage device. Losts of solution, which is how things should be, not one as in the past.

I also have the PicoMDV drive to make, which is another good solution for internal MDV replacement

The Romdisq, though I was fed up that the design files and firmware are supposed be lost, I can recreate the PCB and read the firmware, assuming it is not protected. The Romdisq added some good facilities, that are not seen on anything available, Marcel proposed a ROM Port based QL-SD, but this seems to of been only talk as with other QL expansions ad additions.

So I would say, keep making these options to enhancement for the QL, this can only good for future of the QL in general.

[Peter]

So I understand correctly, QL-SD doesn't qualify to what Peter was talking about because it creates WIN storage not MDV?

In most cases, QL-SD does qualify, and it is of course much better when it comes to expanded QLs and "serious" use.
But QL-SD or QIMSI require their own driver and occupy extra RAM.
So for a 128K QL and ancient software, I see an internal "microdrive without the tape issues" a cool gimmick.
I might say "useless but cool" Let's not forget that most QLers hated microdrives in the past, too small, too slow.

I always thought it would be cool to create an actual microcartidge replacement that left the microdrive unit in tact.

That sounds good, but is so much work to achieve... maybe not worth the time.

But, there are folks interested in that form factor with screen and buttons, so I'm happy to see the work.

We're happy about any QL activity.
Still my gut feeling says, that a neat singleboard internal replacement for fullsize SD card would be attractive for even more folks.
The "KISS principle" (keep it simple, stupid) is often most successfull.