The Sinclair QL Forum

I permanently fell out with a friend over Brexit. I'm a remainer, him a leaver, and we met up after the vote with a bunch of former colleagues). He was telling us what a great thing it was and my exact words in reply were "I think it's a bad thing for the country". From nowhere he started yelling at me to get over it and "we've won, you lost" etc. He then went off on one about immigrants (never heard him say anything like that before), whilst seeming to forget that I myself am an immigrant in the UK.

All rather unsettling at the time.

Still, blue passports, eh?

PS. And happy fish.

I am not surprised that sparrowhawk fell out with a friend over Brexit. I find that amongst my friends and family,
there are two opposed and strongly held philosphical beliefs. Whereas I try to not fret about the beliefs of people I don't know I try,
but not always succeed, not to reveal my beliefs to people close to me who I know strongly subscribe to opposing philosophies.

I see the problem as follows and I feel it can be seen throughout the western world:-

The rise of unprecedented wealth and its wide distribution (by histroric standards) in Europe and North America and with it
the near on disappearance of starvation and disease has allowed the peoples of this geography to freely indulge in one of two philosophies.
The first is the view that the state and super-state (as in the EU) as a all encompassing provider is a good thing and the second view that it is not.

It seems that in many "stable" democracies roughly half the population thinks one way and the other half think the other and "neither the twain shall meet".
I can imagine that the majority of remainers are committed to the comfort of the state, and that the majority of leavers are either unable or unwilling
to fully participate in that position. The ordinary person can only realistically hold contrary views in a country rich enough to support them simultaneously
Opposing philosophical beliefs do not appear to be tolerated in China, for example.

I have experienced a mini version of this in the opposing views on self reliance held by employees and the self employed.

One could argue that the wealth of the west has both corrupted and enfeebled its citizens or that it has enriched them. Depending on one's philosohical
belief a myriad of examples can be found to support either view.
For example historians have speculated that enormous wealth preceded the collapse of many if not all empires.
Is it significant, that despite Britain having a free health service and containing less than 10% of the population of Europe we account
for over 25% of the peoples of Europe classed as disabled?

On the matter of BREXIT no one can predict whether it is a good or bad idea, only a long time will tell and as this thread demonstrates there are no easy answers to our predicament.

Note:- By the way, I was advised by my daughter to avoid posting such nonsense in a public arena.

Sparrowhawk wrote:I permanently fell out with a friend over Brexit. I'm a remainer, him a leaver, and we met up after the vote with a bunch of former colleagues). He was telling us what a great thing it was and my exact words in reply were "I think it's a bad thing for the country". From nowhere he started yelling at me to get over it and "we've won, you lost" etc. He then went off on one about immigrants (never heard him say anything like that before), whilst seeming to forget that I myself am an immigrant in the UK.
All rather unsettling at the time.
Still, blue passports, eh?
PS. And happy fish.

Oh, heck JY, that sounds bad.

I had a much less serious disagreement with one of my brothers about Brexit. He is an ardent Brexiteer, but not anti-immigrant as you described. He is anti lockdown; he is a businessman, money seems more important than health, he does wear masks but is also in favour of people being allowed to enter shops without masks if they choose, etc. We've agreed to disagree on such matters.

It's all going to take a while to adjust to, for all concerned. Given time, and when common sense starts to take effect, people will get used to things and attitudes will moderate once more and things will settle down.

The blue passports - are they still printed by a French company? And all the dead "happy" fish - there'll be a right old stink with that

Please don't think all of us Brits are like your ex-friend.

Overheard, conversation between two Brexiters: #1:
Theres just too many foreigners in this country! #2: Agreed! And why do we need a Foreign Secretary, when so many English girls can type!

Tinyfpga wrote:...there are two opposed and stongly held philosphically beliefs.

That’s the trouble with a binary question on a complex subject.

Outside of such binary questions, in general politics, the typical breakdown goes as follows:
35% to 45% will be on one side (e.g. on the left), a similar number will be on the other side (e.g. on the right), with the remaining people being either in the middle or centre ground, or undecided. Further, within the ‘left’ and the ‘right’, there will be extremists. The centre ground and undecided are those that normally determine who wins the election. With perhaps some on one side moving across to the other side from time to time.

But with brexit, there were divisions within both Labour and the Conservatives. Even within the trade union movement there was division. And businesses were split as well. And as it turns out, within a small percentage, the overall country of the U.K. was divided.

Because of the binary nature of the question, it’s hard to find any form of compromise. So instead we had what amounted to a competition between the ‘two sides’, with all that goes with that.

And as soon as you announce a referendum, of course policies, principles and ‘red lines’ get cemented. And the so called ‘winning’ side, will not want to compromise on their policies, principles and ‘red lines’. Because the winner takes all, don’t they?

Does money come into it, of course. But also people who consider that their voice has not been heard and who feel ignored by the normal politicians now have a chance to make their mark. Plus any beef anyone has ever had in the past with either our own government, or the E.U.

But I don’t think money and wealth explains it all.

In a poor country, they have more important things to worry about. And in the U.K., the poor also often have more important things to worry about.

As far as I am concerned, the basic principles still stand. It’s far better to be friendly and to have good relations with your neighbours. And not to put in place any artificial and unnecessary borders, lines, rules, regulations , red tape etc. I would much prefer it if humans could apply this to the whole world.

Unfortunately I suspect the real reason for brexit is power. The rich and powerful always want more power. They hate being told what to do. And the bigger the democracy, the harder it is to get control. And despite the ‘fake news’ about the E.U., it is a democratic system. A flawed system, yes, but humans have yet to come even remotely close to a really good democratic system...

Mark

dilwyn wrote:Please don't think all of us Brits are like your ex-friend.

Lol. No way. Fortunately, with other Brexit supporting friends, not had many issues. Also I'm married to a Welshy and she's too sensible for that nonsense too.

Also I consider myself a Franco-Brit, or Anglo-Français anyway (which one depends on who's winning at rugby) I'm dual national and have lived in the UK for 48* years.

* or should that be 48% years?

Tinyfpga wrote: Note:- By the way, I was advised by my daughter to avoid posting such nonsense in a public arena.

Be proud! Your daughter is a very wise woman.

Alan

dilwyn wrote:The blue passports - are they still printed by a French company?

Yes, and printed in Poland.

dilwyn wrote:And all the dead "happy" fish - there'll be a right old stink with that

Note that it's only fish who become happy and British if they swim into the UK waters and not humans... I wonder why.