SMSQ/E for the QL?

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Nasta
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Re: SMSQ/E for the QL?

Post by Nasta »

Derek_Stewart wrote:Hi Nasta,

If a 68040/060 CPU were put into the QL, would this cause any problems with the current hardware.
With regards to SMSQ\E for a standard QL, I would vote to use Minerva, as it does not have the PTR\WMAN\HOTKEY system pre-loaded and more developement of a WIMP system could be performed without complete recompile of the operating system.
I would prefer to load the WIMP system at boot time.
Derek
Hm, ok...
CPUs >=68010 have a 'vector base register' so the entire vector table can be moved anywhere in memory. For them, the problem we are discussing does not exist.
For 68000/8 the position of the vectors is fixed, so either redirection has to be handled in software (inctead of vectors pointing directly to service routines, they have to point to jump table, where the jumps jump to service routines, and the jump table has to be in RAM so that the addresses the jumps jump to can be changed) - or, there has to be a way to re-map something else instead of the OS ROM in it's place (like another OS ROM with it's own vectors), or RAM so the vectors can be changed.
The latter is what the GC/SGC do, whatever OS they run, is first copied to RAM which is then re-mapped instead of ROM (to the usual ROM addresses) and write-protected. SMSQ/E for the GC/SGC is aware of this mechanism and basically overwrites whatever OS the QL was started up from reset.

For the other part of the question, you ar easking a contradictory one - SMSQ/E does not contain Minerva, it's a completely re-written OS. So, it's either-or. Unless you were asking for an initial bood via Minerva.
Regarding the WIMP part, SMSQ/E is modular. I would expect the PE is actually a module, which does not have to be included - however, since the PE actually replaces the 'old' console driver (which caters of the old style windows, graphics, character writing etc), so not including the PE requires some other console driver instead. Is there one that is compatible?
On the other hand you mention that you want the WIMP part to be loaded at boot, does that mean on it's own during startup, OR from a boot program?


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tofro
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Re: SMSQ/E for the QL?

Post by tofro »

Actually, I can't see the point in removing PE (which is actually EE) from SMSQ/E - It's small enough, and if you don't use it (or have any programs that use it), you dont see it, hear it or even smell it. Unmanaged windows just behave as without. And it's not in the way if you want to develop another WIMP system.

I haven't looked into it (Wolfgang or Marcel might know), but wouldn't assume it's easily removed from SMSQ/E one point being there is no "normal" console driver.

Tobias


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Nasta
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Re: SMSQ/E for the QL?

Post by Nasta »

tofro wrote:Actually, I can't see the point in removing PE (which is actually EE) from SMSQ/E - It's small enough, and if you don't use it (or have any programs that use it), you dont see it, hear it or even smell it. Unmanaged windows just behave as without. And it's not in the way if you want to develop another WIMP system.
I haven't looked into it (Wolfgang or Marcel might know), but wouldn't assume it's easily removed from SMSQ/E one point being there is no "normal" console driver.
Tobias
I can only agree, was just trying to answer the question with the limited knowledge I have at my disposal :)


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Re: SMSQ/E for the QL?

Post by Derek_Stewart »

Hi,

The part about the CPU was a question, but the second part about the integrated Extended Environment (EE) was a statement.

The EE can not be removed from SMSQ/E, which means that softwre that can not run has no real hope of function under SMS/E. Unless there is a compatiability mode.

Which to my mind is no great deal on QPC2, QXL, Aurora S/GC QL or Q60, but on anything else i.e. a standard QL, this may cut down the functionality of SMSQ/E.

But saying this say, itis proably good to have other options for operating system and WIMP systems.

Regards,

Derek


Regards,

Derek
Nasta
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Re: SMSQ/E for the QL?

Post by Nasta »

Derek_Stewart wrote:Hi,

The part about the CPU was a question, but the second part about the integrated Extended Environment (EE) was a statement.

The EE can not be removed from SMSQ/E, which means that softwre that can not run has no real hope of function under SMS/E. Unless there is a compatiability mode.
Which to my mind is no great deal on QPC2, QXL, Aurora S/GC QL or Q60, but on anything else i.e. a standard QL, this may cut down the functionality of SMSQ/E.

But saying this say, itis proably good to have other options for operating system and WIMP systems.
Regards,

Derek
SMSQ/E is one of the options for any of the above systems and in principle it does not make a difference how it's loaded or run, even if it is from ROM. Obviously for non-compatible programs, there has to be a compatibility option, eg. Minerva. And a choice of which OS to start at power-up or reset.
Aurora has the capability to hold up to half a meg of EPROM (or flash - unfortunately not in-circuit programmable due to limitations of the SGC) which could be used to hold the OS plus more, including SMSQ/E, however this was never used.


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Peter
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Re: SMSQ/E for the QL?

Post by Peter »

tofro wrote:And it's not in the way if you want to develop another WIMP system.
Just funny things like two mouse pointers. ;)


Nasta
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Re: SMSQ/E for the QL?

Post by Nasta »

Does anyone have info where SMSQ/E for the GC/SGC loads itself in memory? I suppose it loads part of itself into the ROM area (RAM that holds the patched copy of the ROM normally). Since there is more space required, where does the rest of it go?


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tofro
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Re: SMSQ/E for the QL?

Post by tofro »

Nasta,

to my knowledge, SMSQ/E for GC doesn't touch the ROM area at all (except for some patches).
It also needs to keep other add-on ROM drivers that use space below 128k intact.

If I remember right, it loads itsself to $30000 (which is just behind the video memory + original system variables) in the GC/SGC address space.

There is also a difference between GC and SGC, although I can't remember what it was ;(

But i'll check tonight.

Regards,
Tobias


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Nasta
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Re: SMSQ/E for the QL?

Post by Nasta »

Both GC and SGC put RAM at $00000 and upwards, with exceptions at $0C000..$0FFFF and $18000..$1BFFF for sure, as the first is the ROM slot and the second is the QL motherboard IO area. Possibly $1C000..$1FFFF may be left open as well (no RAM). Both of them copy the ROM in there, patch it, then copy contents of it's own EPROM in there. Since SMSQ/E replaces all of that code, it could easily load itself partially in there (it's 96k of space).


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tofro
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Re: SMSQ/E for the QL?

Post by tofro »

Nasta,

The page at $1c000 is definitely not usable for the OS, that's where the GC's own I/O space is located (floppy, par_, RTC).

For the rest, I'm, as said, really not sure and need to check first. (However, SMSQ/E boot code is not particulary easy to understand, so I can't guarantee anything. Maybe Wolfgang or Marcel have more insight here)

Regards,
Tobias


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